Blog Against Theocracy Day 1
I’ve been goin’ a little crazy with this whole idea ever since I first came across it. Not that these kinds of issues aren’t in my fucking face and life every day... they are. As a woman, a lesbian, a witch - as an American, that’s right, I said it - an American, I’m constantly blown away by how much and how completely the intent if not the letter of our Constitution has been undermined by religion. And worse, how we seem to be going backward under the current administration of the Georgie Puppet, ventriloquism dummy for the Radical Right Christian Fundimaentalists, (and big money and oil and special interests in general. But that’s a-whole-nother rant!!).
So here’s my chance to speak out. Not just by signing petitions and supporting causes or wearing T-shirts... to really make a difference. Well, I don’t know about that, but at least I have the opportunity to write about something that matters. Sorry kids, no sandbox today.
I’ve had several ideas (among the myriad to choose from) for topics and I’m going to elaborate on a couple of them in the next two days, but for today I’m just going to post some quotes from a couple of our Founding Fathers on the topic of separation of Church and State, (snagged from AltLiberal’s Comments at Clipmarks), and take it from there.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
On the Bible:
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Let’s not forget that pesky letter to the Danbury Baptist Church:
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed., The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"
The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.
- James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, "Essays In Addition to America's Real Religion"
The only ultimate protection for religious liberty in a country like ours, Madison pointed out--echoing Jefferson;--is public opinion: a firm and pervading opinion that the First Amendment works. "Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance."
(Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 56. Madison's words, according to Gaustad, are from his letter of 10 July 1822 to Edward Livingston.)
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect.
(James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.)
'Nuff said!!
PS
Be sure to stop by Blog Against Theocracy to check out all the great bloggers that are participating in this event and speaking out about the separation of Church and State, and don't forget after the event is over to get continuing info and updates on the struggle at Freedom First
So here’s my chance to speak out. Not just by signing petitions and supporting causes or wearing T-shirts... to really make a difference. Well, I don’t know about that, but at least I have the opportunity to write about something that matters. Sorry kids, no sandbox today.
I’ve had several ideas (among the myriad to choose from) for topics and I’m going to elaborate on a couple of them in the next two days, but for today I’m just going to post some quotes from a couple of our Founding Fathers on the topic of separation of Church and State, (snagged from AltLiberal’s Comments at Clipmarks), and take it from there.
Thomas Jefferson
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
On the Bible:
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Let’s not forget that pesky letter to the Danbury Baptist Church:
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
James Madison
And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed., The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"
The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.
- James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, "Essays In Addition to America's Real Religion"
The only ultimate protection for religious liberty in a country like ours, Madison pointed out--echoing Jefferson;--is public opinion: a firm and pervading opinion that the First Amendment works. "Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance."
(Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 56. Madison's words, according to Gaustad, are from his letter of 10 July 1822 to Edward Livingston.)
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect.
(James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.)
'Nuff said!!
PS
Be sure to stop by Blog Against Theocracy to check out all the great bloggers that are participating in this event and speaking out about the separation of Church and State, and don't forget after the event is over to get continuing info and updates on the struggle at Freedom First
Labels: Blog Against Theocracy, James Madison, separation of church and state, Thomas Jefferson
7 Comments:
my avatar looks somewhat like me- does yours? nice post- and nicely done. this is definitely one of my particular pet projects as i am a recovering christian- southern baptist no less :) luckily, that was a brief part of my life and i have the good fortune to live in new york now. anyhoo- love the graphic! stop by anytime- i rant on a regular basis about just about everything :)
Wonderful! I had considered hunting down quotations, but then decided to stick to education-related posts to keep with the theme of my journal. Hopefully I'll actually get to write the other two posts I have burning holes in my brain, because they're topics that are perfect for Blog Against Theocracy and that have been swimming around up there for some time.
Thank you so much for the link about the Time cover - I didn't realize. I want to look more into that, now, but it will have to wait until later. School leaves little time for learning. ;)
Excellent post - and thanks for stopping by my place.
Thomas Jefferson really understood the dangers inherent in "mass beliefs" - Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
The Constitution was conceived specifically to not give anyone undue power, and yet here we are. Here we all are.
And the posts this weekend are going to be amazing.
Betmo,
LOL. You are a lovely bunch of flowers!! That's adorable. What does my avatar look like to you?? It is my own gloved hands doing a tattoo, so I'd have to say yes, it does look like me. (And then I choose the "thumbs down" BAT logo. Guess i have a thing for hands! Makes sense, artist-wise.)
amanda,
I'll be back by tomorrow. Teachers have to "cram" too! LOL
divajood,
The posts are so amazing, already!! Have you seen qassandra's incredible BAT fiction?! Wow!!
All:
Thank you so much for stopping by!
Nicely done.
I have trouble going into depth on any subject, as I tend to ramble.
Thanks for joining in, and appreciate your stopping by!
Cheers! ; )
First, I don't think curious George is a puppet to Christian right. I actually think he is worse than that. He is an exploiter of their political power and politics for the sole purpose of getting elected. A strategy promoted by his strategist.
That said the extreme right is, and has been scary for a long time. I was doing speeches about the New Right in the early 80s, when Jerry Falwell was new and Dick Viguery was the Karl Rove of the day.
I am glad you quoted Jefferson and Maddison. I am surprised however, that you have not used Adams. I think him a better person to quote, not because his quotations are pithy, but because he was clearly a devout Christian, a protestant (his prejudice against Catholicism is very clear) and yet someone who believed that if philosophy or religion could not withstand criticism or attack, then it wasn't much of a philosophy or religion. I have always admired more those who are religious, yet believe in the right to criticize and argue and not to believe, than those who simply don't believe.
John Adams:
"We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be separated. Adieu."
-- one of his last letters to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825. Adams was 90, Jefferson 81 at the time; both died on July 4th of the following year, on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
JR, Had I come upon that reference I certainly would have included it. It is, indeed, brilliant! Thank you so much for bringing to my attention and for posting it here.
Frankly, it's been many years since I have spent much time doing research on topics beyond those comparatively small and personal. The first day of the BAT, I was simply so overwhelmed by all the wonderful reading, to do more than hastily post a few good quotes.
As you your impression of GWB, I think we're somewhat in agreement. I don't claim to actually know. I admit that "Spin" in it's many disguises still gets me. That said, it seems to be a sort of handshake conspiracy between the Bush family and big business/the Radical Religious Right Dominionists. One of those relationships that works out well for all parties involved.
Thanks again for stopping by.
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